Greetings in the lovely name of our Lord Jesus Christ! We are thrilled to be able to present this ministry to you for the glory of God, and it is my hope and prayer that Christians all over the world will be edified and the lost would be saved as a result of the literature, updates, and videos of this site. We are only a vessel in the hands of the Potter, and it is our privilege to be a contending voice of truth and light in this last day of deception and darkness.
I have been preaching open air since October, 2011 and it has been a great journey of learning and fulfillment as we have allowed the call of God to accomplish it’s purposes in our lives. My wife and I are both alumni of Free Gospel Bible Institute in Export, PA and were married August 13, 2011, right before my senior year of college. My wife graduated in 2010 and has been a tremendous blessing to me and the ministry. A woman that will follow her husband as he follows Christ is truly priceless!
We look forward to continuing the work of open air evangelism on the college campus’ and streets of our nation and, as God enables, the nations abroad. Please pray that God would prepare the hearts of all those who will hear the full Gospel of repentance, change of heart and holiness of life to believe and obey it’s life transforming message as He anoints us to proclaim it. TO GOD BE THE GLORY!!!
Click HERE to watch a very convicting, stirring, and challenging video on open air preaching.
This is a conversation I had recently over private message on Facebook with a man from the United Kingdom. I thought some folks might find it edifying. Or at least interesting. . .
UK GUY: Does jesus love everyone?
ME: Yes, but unfortunately most people don’t love Him. Hell is full of people that God loved and tried every thing within His grace and power (according to their free-will) to keep them from going there. Jesus is not a bad God who sends good people to Hell, but a good God who sends bad people to Hell.
UK GUY: So do some Christians deserve to go to hell?
ME: Every body that’s ever existed (besides Christ) deserves to go to Hell because all have sinned against God. Christian’s are those who have simply been delivered from what they DO deserve (Hell) by forsaking their sins and surrendering their lives to what they DON’T deserve (the Gospel).
UK GUY: so christians don’t deserve the lords teachings?
ME: Nobody, Christian or sinner alike, deserves the Lord’s teachings. It is an act of grace on God’s part to use ANYTHING in an attempt to reconcile to Himself people that have sinned against Him (which is everyone, Rom. 3:23), MUCH LESS His only begotten Son. The very definition of grace is unmerited, or undeserved favor. The very teachings of Christ are certainly undeserved to anyone. Kind of like a free College education at the world’s most brilliant university (wherever that may be), only of more eternal value.
UK GUY: so we must value god’s teachings above all else? And does god not say ‘love thy neighbour’?
UK GUY: so do you love sinners who don’t do gods will?
ME: Yes. That’s why I rebuke them (Lev. 19:17; Rev. 3:19 KJV)
UK GUY: do you not attempt to purge their sin? save them?
ME: No. That’s not my job. That’s between them and God. My only responsibility is to proclaim the Word of God to them. I earnestly desire them to repent, be purged, and be saved, but in the end, I can’t MAKE them repent, be purged, and be saved. GOD HIMSELF can’t make them. It is a decision they must make on their own. I lead every person I preach to to the Biblical Jesus, but it’s their decision what they do with Him.
UK GUY: I understand. So would you say a man who travels the world reaching out to people and teaching them of gods grace is a good man?
UK GUY: And if he does this through the medium of music, is he still righteous?
ME: If that is the primary method of their evangelistic outreach, a resounding NO. Scripture makes it abundantly clear that God chose preaching as the primary means of evangelism (1 Cor. 1:21; Tit. 1:3 KJV), not singing.
By the way, how did you come in contact with our ministry? Just curious.
UK GUY: So is worship through music a sin? Because king David wrote songs that were named psalms?
I saw a video of you protesting at a switchfoot concert?
ME: We’re not talking about worship. We’re talking about evangelism. The two CAN be linked, but not in the context of this conversation. We are discussing Biblical methods of calling/influencing sinners to abandon their sin and embrace Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, not “worshipping” with them in song while ignoring the fact that they hate the very holiness of God.
I was recently preaching on a college campus in Indiana. While I was preaching, several students joined a large circle just a few feet away from me and said, “Would you like to worship and sing hymns with us?” I said, “Are any of you free from sin?” You could hear a pin drop. I then said, “No, I will not worship with you. The Bible commands us to worship the Lord in the beauty of HOLINESS, and not a one of you claim to be holy.”
They began to sing, and I sharply rebuked them for it. There wasn’t any kind of worship about what they were doing. It was simply a religious facade to cover up their utter hatred and rebellion toward my message of holiness unto God or eternity in the lake of fire.
The Bible says that sinners SHALL NOT stand in the congregation of the righteous ( Ps. 1:5). In other words, until a sinner worships God by forsaking their sins and submitting to the Lord Jesus Christ, their not fit to worship God in song. It is utterly pointless to attempt to get people who won’t even obey Jesus’ commands to sing a “worship” song to Him. Nadab and Abihu were consumed by the fire of God’s wrath when they tried to offer strange fire (worship), and that is EXACTLY what the song of a sinner is in the ears of a holy God. David NEVER encouraged sinners to worship with him in song. Only fellow saints.
And yes, that was me rebuking Switchfoot. Glory to God!
*they’re not fit*
UK GUY: You sound like the Pharisees in the new testament.
Switchfoot change lives and provide people with a soundtrack to change the world.
You believe in the same god as them and yet you rebuke them, how can this be right?
God says love your enemy. Jon foreman of switchfoot reaches out to the darkest most sinful parts of the world, you just tell them why they’re wrong and not how they can change their ways. I love you and everyone anyway.
ME: Could you provide Bible verses as to why you think I sound like a Pharisee and not just a single sentence opinion please?
And you are WAY out of your league in making such comparative statements of Switchfoot to me. A very thorough study of the following link will reveal that you have utterly no idea what you’re talking about. . .
UK GUY: I have watched this before. God says love your enemy. Jon says this to you and you completely ignoring him despite that fact that he speaks the gospel. Where in the bible does it say Christian rock is sinful?
ME: What do you mean you’ve “watched” this before? The protest video is only linked to the link I sent you, but that’s not why I sent it, just so you can watch it again. Read the link in its ENTIRETY and you will learn why Christian rock is sinful, and many more things. If you don’t find the answers to the questions you’re asking in the link, it won’t be because they’re not there, but because you simply don’t like the answer. You’re a slippery, slimy, sleazy rebel against God, and until you repent and humble yourself, you’ll never find Him for the same reason a criminal can’t find a police station.
UK GUY: do you hate me?
also i forgive you for your cruel and unloving comment about me being a slimy, sleazy rebel against god. i’m sure god would approve of your hatefulness towards a fellow believer.
in your article you focus too much on hate, saying you need to scare sinners into christ rather than approaching them gently. Switchfoot go to the most needy of sinners and they use music to bring them to jesus, i cannot fathom how you think this is wrong. While you focus on rebuking the sinners, switchfoot play the card of love, that is why so many people stood up for Jon when he approached you with water and proclaimed his love for you.
switchfoot don’t even proclaim themselves as a christian rock band, they do what they do for the good of the world god created for us. so what you’ve essentially done is disturbed an alternative rock concert where the public merely went to enjoy themselves.
ME: What makes you think I hate you? Because I told you the truth? Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth (Gal. 4:16)? And there’s no need to forgive me, I did nothing wrong. As a matter of fact, God DOES approve of me calling you names and exposing you for the hypocritical, NON-BELIEVER you are.
I see the pictures on your page, and I can tell just by looking that you are a reveling, potty mouth, effeminate drunkard. You say I’M full of hate, and you YOURSELF hate God. The multitude of your sins testify loud and clear to this (John 14:15). You are an ENEMY of all righteousness. You break the commandments of Jesus Christ, you don’t obey the Gospel. Here’s an idea: How about you start loving God by OBEYING Him? How about stop sinning against Him and live holy? Your foolish lifestyle does NOT glorify Christ. I could be wrong, but I HIGHLY doubt you read my article in its ETIRETY. Once again, I say, that your claims about Switchfoot in comparison to me are SHALLOW and UNBIBLICAL. Instead of proving over and over again how ignorant you are, JUST READ the article and you will see clearly that the scales of God’s Word highly out-weighs your earthly, sensual and devilish opinion.
UK GUY: that’s quite a paragraph. i believe in god, i just interpret the words of god different to you. that doesn’t make me a non-believer in any sense of the word. and now you’re choosing to insult me personally? i don’t know where you got potty mouth from but yes occasionally i do pop to the local tavern to warm my insides with a finely brewed ale. what commandments have i broke? where in the bible does it say rock music is sinful? if rock music/worship is so moving that it actually manages to enrich someone and maybe even convert them, why do you slate it and instead choose to convert people by shouting their faults through a megaphone? do you truly believe that your tiny church is right and the rest of the christian community in the whole world is wrong?
ME: What part of “READ THE ARTICLE IN ITS ENTIRETY” did you not understand? What? Are you scared to read ALL of it?? Until you can HONESTLY say you’ve done that, this conversation is OVER.
UK GUY: i apologise, I shall read it.
A Chapter From “Who Will Rise Up”, by Jed Smock
What about follow-up? Our ministry has sometimes been criticized because we do not emphasize a follow-up program for students.
Jesus and the apostles did not consider follow-up vital to successful evangelism. Instead, Jesus expected true disciples to follow Him. When He witnessed to Peter and Andrew, He said, “Follow me and I will make you fishers of men.” He expected them to make an immediate decision to change the whole direction of their lives.
When the rich young ruler eagerly asked, “What good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?” Jesus did not take this wonderful opportunity to lecture him on the doctrine that salvation is not of works but of grace. Nor did He preach on His upcoming death and resurrection. First, He preached the law. When the man claimed to have kept it, Jesus demanded proof, “If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and FOLLOW ME.”
When the man heard the cost of discipleship, he quickly lost interest in the salvation of his soul and left saddened because he had great wealth with which he could not part. Notice that Jesus did not go chasing after him or plead with him to hear more. He did use the incident to impress upon His disciples the necessity of total commitment. “Everyone that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life” (Matthew 19:29).
Jesus did not gradually reveal His expectations to the interested seeker but instead, demanded an immediate consecration to the Kingdom of all man’s possessions and ambitions. Follow-up program? No, just a straightforward challenge to either follow after the riches and joys of heaven, or continue to set your affections on the things of this life on earth. Jesus expected converts to have as little desire for this world as a dead person has. Another time when Jesus was walking along the way with His disciples a fervent youth said, “Lord, I will follow thee withersoever thou goest.”
And Jesus answered him, “Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head” (Luke 9:57-58). There was no attempt to baptize, no invitation to further Bible study, no explanation of the need for Christian fellowship, no promise of a wonderful plan, no encouragement–but a reminder to count the cost.
And Jesus said unto another, “Follow me.”
But he said, “Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.”
Jesus answered, “Let the dead bury the dead; but go thou and preach the Kingdom of God” (Luke 9:59-60). No “me first” attitude for a true believer, it must be the Kingdom of God first. No excuses accepted by the Lord–He expected instant obedience. Go and preach a life-giving message.
Following Jesus’ Example
When the demonic of the Gadarenes, out of whom Jesus cast a legion of devils, wanted to stay with Him, Jesus would not let him do it, but said, “Go home to your friends, and tell them how great things the Lord hath done for thee” (Mark 5:19).
When Jesus exposed the adultery of the woman at the well, she went into town telling everybody about Jesus and brought them out to hear more. Her conversion sparked a great revival.
If a man has been truly converted one of the first things he will want to do is to tell others. Charles Finney said, “Seest thou a professed convert to Christ whose compassions are not stirred, and whose zeal for the salvation of souls is not awakened? Be assured that you behold a hypocrite.”
I am not denying that there are principles of follow-up found in the Bible. Jesus not only ministered to the lost but spent a considerable amount of time training his 12 disciples to follow Him and continue His work. For four years Cindy followed about two weeks behind me on the college circuit to water the seed which I had sown. Occasionally, she was even able to harvest.
In December of 1980 at Florida State University I was daily heckled by a very persistent fellow. It is ironic that the students who try to shout me down, insist I leave campus and say my preaching is nonsense, will skip classes and spend hours listening to me.
Sister Cindy followed up my ministry at Florida State and this same heckler told her he had become interested in Bible prophecy. He asked her many questions but insisted he was not open to this “Jesus stuff.” Sister Cindy, believing that he would be converted, asked a Christian student to keep an eye on him. When she returned to FSU with “Holy Hubert” in April, they were greeted by the smiling face of the one “who persecuted us in times past, but now preached the faith which he once destroyed.” They glorified God in him. This former heckler said he looked forward to preaching to his fellow students. Sister Cindy told him that this was his day. After drawing the crowd, she called on him to give his testimony.
As he spoke he confessed that he had been one of the worst mockers on campus. He admitted that after several days of scorning, he began to ask himself why he kept going back to listen. He said that he realized that the truth we spoke was what upset him, but at the same time, drew him back. He told the students, “Some of you probably remember me, I was a big mouth for the devil, but today I’m a big mouth for Jesus.” This man graduated, married, and became a missionary to Mexico.
The Lord had me in a full-time ministry within weeks after my conversion. He sent me to the streets, nursing homes, jails, hospitals, homes and into the public schools to infiltrate and do undercover work as a substitute teacher. Within six months I started a weekly Bible study in an old school house. Within a year I conducted a two-week church revival. Within two years I was full-time in The Campus Ministry.
Sister Cindy moved even more quickly. Within a month after being saved she was giving her testimony on the colleges with Max and me. Ten weeks after her conversion she was preaching weekly at the University of Florida. After six months she forsook a journalism career and started traveling the campuses full-time with Max and me. Cindy would stay in a Christian home at night and meet us daily on campus. After nine months she was making the campus circuit via Greyhound buses on her own.
Our examples should not be considered the exception. When there has been a total surrender on the part of the new convert, and with proper encouragement from Christian leadership, examples such as ours can become the rule. Actually, most newborn Christians have great zeal to be active in the ministry. However, the cares of this world, or the deceitfulness of riches may soon cool their ardor. Of course, the backsliders are also ever present to throw a wet blanket on them to put out their fire.
Paul said, “Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ” (I Corinthian 11:1). Paul was not ashamed to set himself up as an example of what a Christian ought to do and be. For too long we have set up the apostles as unique men who lived the Christian life on a higher plane than we could ever hope to attain. Not so. They were men subject to like passions as we are.
I will never forget the memorable words my pastor, Clyde Swalls, said to me shortly after my conversion: “Jed, do you realize that the same Spirit that dwelled in the Apostle Paul dwells in you? Therefore, whatever he accomplished you can do also; even a greater ministry is available to you. For it is not by human might, or power, but by the Spirit that we do great works for God.”
From that moment I was determined to be a twentieth-century Paul. Believers today have set their goals too low. Pastors expect so little and challenge their congregation so slightly that the typical attitude is “How much can I get away with and still make it to heaven?”
Where are the fishers of men? Where are the ark builders, the sword fighters, the giant slayers, the sun stoppers, the mountain movers and the martyrs?
The Bible Institutes and Christian Liberal Arts Colleges, with a few exceptions, are not much better than the state universities. The vast majority of students, after two to four years of training, grow soft, complacent, comfortable and remain surprisingly ignorant of the Bible and sound theology. I would match the Biblical knowledge, theological understanding and general wisdom of Paul Stamm, Tom Carlisle, Pat Noordewier, and Sister Cindy (four of whom I have had the privilege of training) against most Bible college or seminary graduates. While the student has been wilting in the classroom Brother Paul, Brother Tom, Sister Pat and Sister Cindy have been out in the field battling the forces of evil, diligently studying the Bible and the works of the great theologians such as Charles Finney–and learning to be individuals of prayer by interceding daily on behalf of those they are preaching to. Not only have they been reaching the lost but church doors have opened to enable them to minister to the saints. There is no substitute for on-the-job training.
Follow-up? Most people to whom I preach, I may never see again. But there have been surprises.
When I first went to Southern Oregon College in Ashland, Monte Botts was already preaching. He told me he had been converted in a hotel meeting which I had held in Tucson, Arizona several years ago. Interestingly enough, there were only four people in the service. I preached from Psalm 94:16: “Who will rise up?” They all volunteered. When Brother Monte started his work at Southern Oregon he had trouble with the authorities but defended his rights, paving the way for our ministry.
Rich Rife was also a volunteer at the meeting in Tucson and he now preaches on the streets of America’s largest cities. They had followed me up!
At the University of Iowa I was preaching in the Old Capital area close to a city bus stop. Ron Alberts, a bus driver, stopped there regularly to pick up students and listened to my message as his passengers boarded. Immediately after work he would rush down to campus and hear me preach the rest of the day. I was speaking nightly to Grace Fellowship which met in the Wesley Foundation. Ron started attending these meetings and one night committed his life to Christ. The next year Ron followed me for several weeks on the campuses, during this time he became bolder to share the Gospel. When he returned to Iowa City he was a more effective witness on his bus route.
The student population is very transient. Therefore, it is not unusual for them to hear me on different campuses. There is an old adage: “Throw a shoe into a pack of dogs, and the only one who yelps is the one who gets hit.”
One day at the University of Colorado one of the dogs decided to throw back. He threw snowballs which I had to–sometimes unsuccessfully–dodge.
The next year at the University of Texas I witnessed to a student and eventually led him in a prayer of repentance and faith. He then confessed that he had transferred from the University of Colorado and that he was the one who had thrown snowballs at me the year before. The following year when I returned to UT, he had become an active member in the Maranatha Christian Church. By the next year he had become a pastor in the church!
There are certain campuses where we preach annually and are therefore able to do some follow-up. We have often discovered that we have great effect on the students even though our ministry may not result in their immediate conversion. At the end of each school year I have heard testimonies from students that go much like this one from a student at the University of California at San Diego:
“Brother Jed, I want to shake your hand. I have heard you speak every year since I was a freshman. I graduate this year so I will probably never hear you again. Therefore, I wanted to let you know that your annual ministry to this campus has been one of the highlights of my education. You are the most powerful speaker I have ever heard. I am not a Christian, but I have thought a lot about what you say. You have taught me most of what I know about the Bible and I have learned a lot. Thank you for coming to this campus.”
Obviously, such remarks at the end of a long year of evangelism are a great encouragement to me.
In the late seventies a dirty old man who called himself “The Swami” came to the UCLA free-speech area to tell obscene stories. He started competing for the attention of the crowd that had gathered to listen to me. He made such a commotion that it was very difficult to get my message across, so I moved to another area. At first only a few pursued me. Most of these were Christians, but at least one girl was not; and she made serious inquiry into the nature of salvation. Within 15 minutes four Christians and I knelt and prayed with the girl for the salvation of her soul. Meanwhile, the crowd grew bored with “The Swami,” and returned to hear me preach. I never saw the girl again but in 1983 a Christian student reminded me of the conversion and informed me that she had graduated and was a missionary in South America. Incidents like this have confirmed to me that a follow-up program, although helpful, is not necessary.
The over-emphasis on a follow-up ministry is a result of offering salvation without repentance. Jesus’ first public message was, “Repent ye, and believe the gospel” (Mark 1:15). His last words to His disciples before ascending into heaven included the exhortation “That repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem” (Luke 24:47).
Peter preached to a crowd of Jews that gathered at the temple gate after he healed the lame man: “Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out” (Acts 20:21). Repentance and faith are both prerequisites for salvation.
Most evangelism today says: “Only believe,” or, “Jesus will accept you just as you are,” or, “Just ask Jesus into your heart,” or, “Accept Him as your personal Savior.”
If anything is said of repentance, it comes later. No wonder they must have elaborate follow-up programs. Under this plan how could anyone get saved from sin? The Biblical order is REPENT AND BELIEVE, not believe and repent. The fact of the matter is that without repentance there is no saving faith.
If there has been true repentance and faith, we will not have to beg and plead for the individual to come to Bible studies or church. If he is a Christian he will study to show himself approved. He will not desire to forsake the gathering together of his brethren. If he has been born again, we will not have to cajole him to give up drinking, swearing or any other sin. Indeed, if he is a true convert, he has forsaken sin. We do not have to beg him to be unselfish. If he is a Christian, his life is centered in God and in service to his fellow man.
Many have been deceived into believing that they may know Jesus as their personal Savior without recognizing Him as Lord. Such people are not following Jesus in truth. The fact of the matter is that Jesus does not become a man’s Savior until He is recognized as Lord in every area of life. The Word says: “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God has raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved” (Romans 10:9).
If He is not Lord of all then He is not Lord at all.
What is the evidence that a man believes in his heart? Many have made mere mental assent to certain fundamental facts concerning Jesus Christ but do not believe in their hearts. If a man believes in his heart, he will obey. Obedience is the evidence of faith. The Bible says: “For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation” (Romans 10:10). Faith from the heart will produce a righteous life. According to God’s Word: “Ye know that everyone that doeth righteousness is born of Jesus Christ” (I John 2:29).
Evangelicals, in their zeal to encourage individuals to be saved, too often lead a man into a premature confession with his mouth when there has been no work of repentance in the heart. If Christendom had more John the Baptists warning the multitude, “Oh generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance” (Luke 3:7-8), a follow-up program would not be necessary.
The only kind of Christianity I see in the Bible is total commitment. One must forsake all: the world, the flesh, and the devil, in order to qualify to be a Christian and remain one. This is the only Christianity I know to preach. Until this message is sounded loudly and clearly from the pulpit, follow-up will be a constant concern in Christendom.
There are not two kind of Christians: the few that are fully committed and the many that are only partially committed. This must be understood, or evangelicals are forever condemned to a life of cajoling, coaxing, and pleading, instead of patiently correcting, instructing and inspiring in both doctrine and practice.
Plowing and Planting
One plants the seed, another may water it. But it is God that gives the increase. Our ministry is primarily one of plowing and planting. Regrettably, there are too many who are trying to plant, without first plowing the field. One seed, that became a beautiful flower, sent me a thank-you note:
I want to thank you so very much for coming to speak at Ohio University. I’ve been at O.U. for three years and heard you speak each time. I listened the first two years, but this year was different. O.U. has had other evangelists come, but the people really listen to what you’re saying because you truly love God and show this love towards others. You probably don’t remember me, but after one of your “teachings” on the college green you were speaking to a girl and her boyfriend. You really helped her. Then you spoke to me on Eastern Religions. After you left my friend and I had some discussions on God and Religions. Since then I’ve quit going to Hare Krishna suppers, and have cut ties with them totally. I just want to thank you for planting the seeds and helping me to realize how true God is.
May God be with you,
Love in Him,
We are always anxious to work with Christians, both on campus and in local churches, who are willing to water the seed which we have sown. Rev. Bob Rodgers, when he pastored Calvary Assembly in Lexington, Kentucky, testified that 50 students started attending his church as a result of my daily meetings on campus and nightly meetings in his church.
The students who manned the Intervarsity book table at UCLA informed me that they had distributed more literature in the few days I had been on campus than they had all year.
Many students in Campus Crusade for Christ have told me that after I have preached on campus the students are much more open to discussion. One year a staff member for Campus Crusade at Arizona State told me, “Brother Jed when you are on campus and for weeks afterwards we set aside our usual approach and ask the students one question, ‘What do you think of Brother Jed?’ That question is bound to get a response. Having gained their attention we eventually direct the conversation to the gospel.” Other Campus Crusaders tell me that when I am ministering, students make more appointments for personal interviews than at any other time of the year. However, many from this organization have also opposed my approach and message.
If we get a convert, we attempt to introduce him to someone we know to be a Christian. However, if there has been a true conversion, we are confident that the new Christian will seek out fellowship.
Our ministry is so much more effective when the Christian leadership on campus fully supports and cooperates with our efforts. Such was the case at Montana State University in March 1984.
We blew into Bozeman, Montana, with a heavy snow storm. When we started preaching it was snowing so hard we could barely see. The Word of God soon froze about 200 students in their tracks. Despite the cold elements, a FIRE was kindled that could not be put out.
Initially at Montana State it seemed we were as unwanted as the spring snow. I stabbed the students with the Sword of the Spirit for four hours and by late afternoon they were as angry and unreasonable as wounded animals.
I went into the cafeteria for a hot drink and over 50 students followed me. Most attempted to justify their rebellion against God by asking questions with the same attitude the Pharisees confronted Jesus. It seemed like your typical campus of apathetic sinners and lukewarm and ignorant professing Christians. We returned with the snow the next day and again preached outdoors to huge crowds for several hours. When it seemed they might gnash me with their teeth, I advanced to the cafeteria. This time 100 students followed me.
Many of them swarmed around Sister Cindy who was already inside with a campus minister, John E., who described the scene:
“One afternoon when I was talking with Cindy in the Student Union Building’s Coffee Shop, the crowd Jed was speaking to outside followed him inside. Before I knew it, about 50-100 students had crowded around us asking many questions. I had never preached the Gospel in this way before. Imagine, sitting at a table with coffee, preaching to the multitudes! It wasn’t very long until we were all asked to leave the coffee shop because of all the commotion. We then went with about 75 people to a lounge and shared the gospel for another two hours there.”
This was our first sign of breakthrough.
That evening John E. and another campus minister took us to dinner. I reasoned with them on holiness, righteousness and confrontation evangelism for two and one-half hours. The two leaders felt other Christians on campus needed to hear my message so they called a special indoor meeting the next night.
Over 100 came to the service including an MSU professor and his prayer group. I exhorted them to holy living and good works and “God’s word went forth and melted them” (Psalm 147:18). Conviction seized the crowd and about 30 stood and confessed their sins including lust, lukewarmness and fighting our ministry. Many committed themselves to pray and to stand for righteousness until their university saw true revival!
John E. concluded:
“Jed and Cindy Smock’s challenge to Holy Living stirred much controversy among Christians, but it was exciting to see God melt hearts and do significant things in the lives of us. Holiness has been the catchword since they came.”
The following is a letter from one revived Montana State student:
Dear Brother Jed and Sister Cindy,
I praise God for your marvelous ministry!
Thank you for coming to MSU this spring. I must confess that when I first heard you speaking I didn’t know what to think, but by the third day I could learn to appreciate your unique methods of evangelism.
I believe the Gospel you are presenting is the Gospel for us in the United States today. We’ve heard that God loves us, and it’s time we hear how God sees our sin. You are absolutely right about the moral behavior of college students today. It’s time they are told that sin is not O.K., and that there are standards by which we will all someday be judged.
Your time spent on campus encouraged many of us to be more vocal Christians and stand up for our beliefs. I found numerous opportunities open up for witnessing. God was the talk of the campus for a change. A fellow student testified at a Bible study, how because of your ministry he broke up a fight between drunken fraternity boys, and witnessed to them about Christ for two hours. One student came to the Lord as a result. Praise God!
In my opinion you two were the biggest thing that ever came to MSU, much more of an impact than anything in my experience. I was and am really amazed at the powerful inspired influence you had. I don’t know how you put up with the disgusting hassles you receive. It is certainly the work of the Holy Spirit. . . .
Bill Keightley–MSU History major
Two years later we returned to Montana State University. We suffered a major disappointment when John E., one of the ministers who had received us with joy last time, rejected our ministry. He was vague in explaining why. I concluded he had “received the seed into stony places.” Nevertheless, many were glad that we had returned. It was amazing to see what a legend we had become since our previous visit. In addition to our regular afternoon preaching sessions, we held two evening services in a chapel and a good number of serious seekers attended. Three came forward at an invitation to repent of their sins.
Someone recently asked me, “Do you believe that a person can get saved by reading a different translation of the bible other than KJV?”
My response was,
“Yes, simply because other versions CONTAIN the Word of God, but not because THEY ARE the Word of God. Just like how cow manure CONTAINS water, but it surely isn’t water.
I had an NIV Bible when I first got saved, simply because I didn’t know any better, but when I did learn better, I got rid of it (James 4:17). I know this totally bursts your theological bubble as a Baptist, but if I, or anybody at that matter, would have continued reading the NIV after I discovered all of it’s distortions and errors, it would have eventually resulted in the loss of my salvation.
Consider this: The Bible says there is no other name but the name of Jesus whereby men must be saved (Acts 4:12)
The Bible also declares that God has magnified his Word ABOVE His name (Psalm 138:2).
What can we conclude from this?
Simply that God’s WORD takes preeminence over salvation. In a time where men only desire what God can do for them (salvation), yet care nothing about Who He is (His Word), this truth must be earnestly contended for.
When disputing with people about the perfection of the King James Bible and how that it is Scripturally and illogically impossible for there to be two perfect Bibles, I’m often met with this: “Well, I can agree that there’s definitely some differences between the King James and other versions, but I don’t think it affects my salvation to read them.”
Statements like this only reveal the utmost ignorance on their part, which imply two totally grievous and unbiblical notions:
1. That God has magnified salvation above His Word.
2. That God will not hold them accountable for their willful rejection of the Scriptural and logical witnesses of His Word (KJV).
Bro. Charlie Kennon preached a message once on “The Idolatry of Salvation.” Sadly, many church members are so blind and carnal that they would probably write such a message off as blasphemy.
My whole point is this: When God’s highest pleasure (the Word) takes back seat to our highest pleasure (salvation), eventually, we will LOSE both and crash into Hell, but when we do what God does and magnify His pleasure above ours, in the end, we WIN both.
Remember, God has mercy on honest ignorance, not stubborn rebellion. Kick no longer against the perfect, unbreakable pricks of the King James Bible.”
Two cold and windy days of preaching and teaching with Bro. Bourgault at Missouri Southern in Joplin
Two days of preaching at the University of Virginia with Bro. Ross Jackson and Bro. Randy Hartinger
Bro. Randy from VA
Bro. Ross from NC
The first day of our preach at UVA made the campus news. They called us “anti-gay protesters” on a count of it being “coming out” week. Funny thing is we had no idea about any homo-recognition going on there. We just showed up to preach the Bible!
Click HERE to see the news article.
Often after the preaching, students will gather in and ask questions for hours about the Bible.
Little miss Abigail trying on Daddy’s hat:)
George Mason University in Fairfax, VA
Two days of preaching at Goshen College in Goshen, IN
You can see the frustration on my face (bottom pic) as I simply open and quote the Bible to students coming back at me with the old, “Well that’s just your interpretation” accusation. Man! What part of “He that committeth sin is of the devil” can’t this generation understand?!
Click HERE to read a news article that Goshen College did on us while we were there. I highly recommend reading the comments toward the bottom.
Preaching to hundreds of wayward youth at a “Christian” Rock Concert called “Winter Jam” in Tulsa
The month of March was a very event-filled month.
Below are videos listed of all the events the Lord enabled us to cover. . .
(WARNING: Rebellion, immodesty, and blasphemy. Viewer maturity advised)
The following is a detailed dialogue I had with a young man by the name of Ryan Dovel over my Switchfoot “protest” video. In just a weeks time after I uploaded the video, it had received over 67,000 views and trafficked almost 15,000 viewers from 44 new countries to my webpage. I was getting literally hundreds of emails from all over the world from people demanding me to explain my actions. I assured all of them that I had not the time to deal with every last one of them on a personal level and that they would have to view our webpage in order to see what we believe and why we preach the way we do. I felt it necessary, however, to engage at least one person over the matter in order to post a thought out, point-by-point conversation that would answer many (if not all) of the same questions and concerns that I got in all of the other emails.
It is truly my prayer that this article will open the eyes and cast down every excuse of people who love this cursed world more than they love God.
I admire your boldness in preaching the Word of God so publicly without shame. It’s something not many people can do. I have a few observations to share with you:
1. I notice that your speaking tone can sound hateful. I realize that you seek to share God’s hatred of sin with those who are not saved. However, it seems to me that the hateful tone can actually turn people away before they even hear your message.
What does this mean?
Someone who MIGHT have repented because of your message, instead might have refused to listen at all, and only because of the tone you spoke in.
2. Shouting through a megaphone- it has the potential to scare potential Christians away, either because the noise damages their ears (or their children’s)
Shouting through the megaphone on a street DOES get attention. However, I think you’ll agree with me that it isn’t always the kind of attention you may NEED to preach the Word effectively.
3. When you refer to passers-by on the street as Sinners, you’re right. However, doing so without acknowledging your OWN sinful nature (after all, we ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God) makes you come across as hypocritical to some people. It’s better to stress the fact that ALL of us are sinners and YET Christ STILL died for all of us. Grace is, after all, the whole point of Jesus’s death and resurrection.
That’s about it! I’d love to hear your thoughts on my points.
Grace and Peace,
A friend in Christ
I appreciate your input. I always enjoy being challenged and sharpened in the work of God.
Concerning your points about my tone, I would simply say that it is just the effects of the nature of preaching, which is God’s primary means of evangelism (1 Cor. 1:18, 1:21; Tit. 1:3). Of course I am not all against other methods of evangelism (one on one witnessing, passing out tracts, etc), but I am convinced through the Scriptures that preaching is God’s primary method.
It is no surprise to God that sinners get mad when preached to. God already knew that sinners would prefer that Christians just talk to them in a nice, soft tone that wouldn’t agitate their conscience. God also knew that unless the Gospel is PREACHED, it would never open the sinner’s eyes’ to how God-hating he really is. Sinners, by their very nature, hate the authority of God, and there is nothing more authoritative than Gospel preaching.
We are commanded to warn and rebuke our neighbors that are sinning against God on their way to Hell, and to not do so, according to many Scriptures, is disobedient to God and unloving toward our fellow man (Lev. 19:17; Ezekiel 3:18-19; Prov. 27:5; 1 Tim. 5:20; 2 Tim. 4:2; Rev. 3:19). Warning and rebuking sinners does not turn them away from the Gospel, for before they’re even warned and rebuked, they are already turned away from the Lord by virtue of their rebellion against Him (Isa. 59:2).
Simply put, love is hate to those who hate truth. The world hated and crucified the most loving man that ever existed, and all who live and preach like Him will have the same results (Jn. 7:7, 15:18-21; 1 Jn. 3:13). Sinners are blind to the things of God (2 Cor. 4:4). They take light for darkness and darkness for light; love for hate and hate for love, and unless they’re eyes are opened and converted, they will stay that way.
Concerning your third point, you said (and I quote),
“When you refer to passers-by on the street as Sinners, you’re right. However, doing so without acknowledging your OWN sinful nature (after all, we ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God) makes you come across as hypocritical to some people. It’s better to stress the fact that ALL of us are sinners and YET Christ STILL died for all of us. Grace is, after all, the whole point of Jesus’s death and resurrection.”
There are a few very unbiblical statements you made in this paragraph.
First, you said, “. . . doing so (referring to passer-by’s on the street as sinners) without acknowledging your OWN sinful nature. . .”, clearly inferring that you believe Christians have sinful natures. I know this will totally burst your theological bubble, but I don’t believe such a thing. I don’t even believe that man is born with a sinful nature. I trust the two articles underneath will not only explain why I don’t, but also influence you to believe the same:
You also said, “. . . makes you come across as hypocritical to some people. It’s better to stress the fact that ALL of us are sinners. . .”
The following links will show you that these assumptions are very twisted and interwoven in poor Bible literacy:
I would also encourage you to read our “About Us” page and the links that are contained therein. It will give you a greater understanding, and hopefully appreciation, of why we do what we do.
Thanks again for your inquiries. I look forward to your response,
I agree with you on the importance of preaching in evangelism, it’s absolutely vital. The verses you cited about the importance of rebuking your neighbors are as well.
They don’t, however, really say: “Yell at your neighbor in order for him to understand how sinful his life is.” Rebuking does not equate to an angry tone. It possibly could, but the two are not inherently linked. They seem to be linked in your preaching, however. Look at some biblical examples of NOT doing this:
1. Jesus and the Samaritan Woman. Jesus conferred with a well-known sinful woman one on one. The verse doesn’t say he converted her through so called, “fire and brimstone,” but by revealing to her the FREEDOM that comes in Him. The Living Water. It says she went forth and was a changed person, so it was obviously effective. No yelling required.
2. Paul to the Athenians in Acts 17:22. Paul responds to the displays of the Greek Pantheon with reason, choosing to compliment them first (“in every way you are very religious”) before preaching. In this way, he sparked their attention and curiosity to the gospel.
That’s the kind of attention an evangelist should strive to gain for God’s Kingdom, rather than the kind that Westboro Baptist Church (who I’m sure you’re familiar with) does. Although WBC, I’m sure you’ll agree, is quite unbiblical on a number of things, hopefully you see my point. The gospel won’t cause someone to turn away, but someone’s PRESENTATION of it very well can. It’s something to be very aware of as you go out to speak and make signs.
Concerning sinful nature:
I wasn’t really addressing Original Sin, although I did read your articles. Romans 6 certainly supports your view that Christians are free from slavery to sin. However, my point was less about inherent sinful nature and more about ACTUALLY sinning. I explicitly stated Romans 3:23, which you didn’t really mention. Even if we aren’t born in sin, we all still commit them. Look at David, a man after God’s own heart, and the countless abominations of his life. Noah’s drunkenness, or Abraham’s immorality with Hagar. Or perhaps Paul’s man in Roman’s 7.
Unless you hold the opinion that you have lived a life free of sin, then I think it should be clear to you why passers by who hear you speak might be turned away by your presentation of the gospel.
Simply put, your words can come across to some people as if you’re BETTER then them. After that, the phrase “words falling on deaf ears” comes to mind. We aren’t inherently perfect, holy people, rather we are MADE perfect and holy by Christ. The distinction is lacking in the words you speak on the street.
Grace and Peace,
Just for the record, you’re the ONLY one in literally HUNDREDS of emails that I’ve gotten over the last several days that I’m personally responding to. Yours was one of the first, so I began to converse with you before I even knew I would get so many complaints concerning this Switchfoot “protest” video. I do think it is necessary to engage at least one person about the whole issue, and God chose you. Consider yourself blessed:)
Concerning those verses I gave you on preaching, reproving, and rebuking, you said, “They don’t, however, really say: ‘Yell at your neighbor in order for him to understand how sinful his life is.”
Well, maybe I should have incorporated Isaiah 58:1 in that list of Scriptures, which declares, “CRY ALOUD, SPARE NOT, lift up thy voice like a TRUMPET, and SHEW MY PEOPLE THEIR TRANSGRESSION. . . .”
And what Bible verse do you have to support this idea of, “Rebuking does not equate an angry tone?” Are you suggesting that we do not need to be angered and grieved about what angers and grieves God (Psalm 7:11)? Can you give me any Bible verses of men who rebuked WITHOUT be angered over what angers God? Anger, in and of itself, is not sinful (Eph. 4:26), and the two passages of Scripture you listed for examples of “rebuke” are miserably misapplied.
First of all, to construe Bible principles of reproof and rebuke with the example of Christ’s one-on-one dealing with the Samaritan woman shows you are not rightly dividing the Word of Truth (2 Tim. 2:15). Christ was not rebuking this woman, nor needed to rebuke her BECAUSE she came to Him in humility, and He in return gave her grace, “for God. . . . giveth grace to the humble” (1 Pt. 5:5). 98% of the people we encounter while preaching in the open air are nothing but proud, “already saved” hypocrites that need the law of God (which, by the way, is the schoolmaster that leads to us Christ- Gal. 3:24) sharply applied to their rebellion. That is a principle we apply every time we evangelize: grace to the humble, law to the proud. Don’t take our law to the proud approach you saw in the Switchfoot video and try to refute it with grace to the humble. That’s what the rest of this generation is trying to do: Apply the grace of God to their lawless, rebellious lifestyles, AND GOD WILL NEVER ALLOW IT.
By the way, didn’t I already state that I have nothing against one-on-one witnessing? But you speak as if I believe rebuke is the ONLY method of evangelism. In this you do err.
Second of all, your mention of Paul’s approach to the Athenians only confirms why I am a King-James-only-bigot.
You quoted from the ESV, which is not at all the REAL English standard version. The REAL English Standard version (KJV) says, “Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too SUPERSTITIOUS.”
Now does that sound like a compliment to you? Not at all. As a matter a fact, it sounds like Paul’s actually mocking their beliefs, just like Elijah (the man of God) did when he mocked the prophets of Baal (1 Kings 18:27). Mocking disobedient and rebellious lifestyles is one (not the ONLY, breathe Ryan:) way God humbles and reveals the foolishness and folly of the sinner, which is ABSOLUTELY necessary to open their eyes to their need of God’s grace.
(To understand why I make such bold claims about the KJV, read these: http://openairholinessministries.wordpress.com/2014/01/04/holiness-literature-25-reasons-i-am-a-kjb-only-intolerant-of-all-other-versions-bigot/
About the “kind of attention” you’re referring to that evangelists should strive to gain for God’s Kingdom, you’re absolutely wrong. People love trying to throw us in the Westboro Baptist cess-pool, but the ONLY similarities between us and them is the attention we get. That is all. It is very true that just because people are stirred to anger and attention is raised to a certain event doesn’t mean that the event or what took place is of God. I’ll spare you from examples, I’m sure we can both list dozens, if not hundreds. It is EQUALLY true that if something IS of God, it will stir much anger and raise much attention. The Bible makes it very clear that God’s people have, are, and always will be viewed as the center of all trouble, and the quicker they’re extinguished, the quicker peace (say they) will come to earth. This has been the battle cry of the ages, and will continue to be until the antichrist is ushered in and all Hell breaks loose in the Great Tribulation. It was said of the Apostle Paul, after his Gospel message in Acts 22, “AWAY WITH SUCH A FELLOW FROM THE EARTH: FOR IT IS NOT FIT THAT HE SHOULD LIVE.” And so it is from the false church to the true church of the Living God – hatred and animosity that will eventually lead to much bled-shed. Not because there’s anything wrong with the preachers method or message, but because the world hates the Christ he represents (Jn. 7:7).
You, along with almost all of this generation make the grave mistake of supposing that results in evangelism is more important than OBEDIENCE in evangelism, which is just the simple proclamation of God’s opinion (Word) in the world, regardless of the response or lack thereof. Simply put, you love the praise of men more than the praise of God. “Complimenting” sinners is more important to you than simply doing what God told you to do: preach to, warn, reprove, and rebuke them.
You also said, “The gospel won’t cause someone to turn away, but someone’s PRESENTATION of it very well can. It’s something to be very aware of as you go out to speak and make signs.”
A simple verse by verse Bible study of the ministry and methodology of the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles in preaching proves this to be a very unbiblical statement:
You went on to say, “. . . my point was less about inherent sinful nature and more about ACTUALLY sinning. I explicitly stated Romans 3:23, which you didn’t really mention. Even if we aren’t born in sin, we all still commit them.”
I posted these articles in my last email to you, but I suppose you did not read them. They clearly explain that there is no such thing as a “sinning Christian.” And just a side note: Romans 3:23 says all HAVE sinned, not all ARE sinning. Past tense and present tense are a BIG deal when it comes to the defining work of salvation (2 Cor. 5:17). That applies to 1 John 1:8-10 too, just in case you thought to bring that verse up again:
And you think “countless abominations” were the mark of David’s life? You do realize words mean things don’t you? You do realize “countless” means without number don’t you? He committed adultery with Bathsheba, murdered her husband, numbered Israel, and failed at being the patriarch (father) he should have been. That’s the sins Scripture list. Most certainly not countless. The difference between David’s sins (along with Noah and Abraham’s) and the sins of professing Christians today is that they REPENTED of them. They didn’t make excuse for them and justify themselves, but they FORSOOK them and determined by God’s grace to NEVER commit them again, which leads me to me next point:
The man that is described in Romans 7 is sin-bound sinner convicted by the law, not a sin-free Christian converted by grace. See link below for details:
You also said, “Unless you hold the opinion that you have lived a life free of sin, then I think it should be clear to you why passers by who hear you speak might be turned away by your presentation of the gospel. Simply put, your words can come across to some people as if you’re BETTER then them.”
Never said I’ve never sinned. Simply claim that the Christian life is a life free from sin, which (according to Proverbs 12:26) is a life more excellent than my sinful neighbors. Besides, if I don’t think the Christian life is better than all others, what’s the point of even preaching the Gospel? I certainly don’t believe that the value of the Christian soul is better than the value of the sinner’s soul, but that’s much different than believing the Christian’s character, yea, his very nature (2 Pt. 1:4) is better than the sinner’s nature and character.
And the Word falling on deaf ears is who’s problem? The preachers? Nay, but the sinners (Isa. 55:11; Jn. 8:43). THAT’S the distinction most professing Christians miss,
P. S: To avoid having to repost links, please read all that are listed in this email. It will help you not to ask many of same questions/concerns you just keep rewording, of which I will continue to answer in the same manner. Thanks.
Hey Ryan, I was just wondering if you plan on emailing me back anytime soon? I wanted to know because if not, I plan on posting our conversation to my website and calling it “Answers to the Switchfoot Controversy.” If you are satisfied with your last email and my last response, then the article will go up soon, but if you are not done and wish for me to wait on your last response, I will do so.
Bro. Lepelley, Apologies for the delayed respsonse.
That’s fine if you want to post this as a response to the Switchfoot controversy, but first, perhaps we should actually talk about the Switchfoot controversy. My previous emails haven’t really been about that at all, rather, your ministering in general. But since you brought it up, let’s talk about Switchfoot.
They’re a Rock n Roll band from San Diego, and they profess to be Christians. I’m sure you’ll disagree, but it shows through their music. Not only do they have no vulgarity or degrading lyrics, but their lyrics are about praising God for his great love, or expressing grief in times of sorrow. In this way, Jon Foreman, (their singer, who I’ll get to in a minute) follows the example of many Psalms. I struggle to find your issue with them, other than that (per the video) they play christian rock music which you consider to be a “thing of the world.” I certainly question your reasoning behind Christian music being a “thing of the world.” God CREATED sound, knew that combinations of tones would form melodies, and gave us the ability to reproduce and appreciate that hidden form of beauty with our ears. Throughout the Bible, from Exodus 15 to the Psalms, are examples of God’s people singing and playing music to him. These modern day artists are trying to do the same thing.
This is where you lost me. Why is it that you consider Christian rock to be “of the world?” Is it because you think people who listen to it, are glorifying the bands (such as Switchfoot) rather than God? Even if that is the case, that certainly doesn’t make Christian Rock inherently wrong. Let’s say some misguided people worship Moses and Elijah along with God. Would that make I Moses and Elijah inherently wrong and sinful? Of course not. Music is a thing of God, corrupted by some men. Not these men. Also I would argue that for a majority of these musicians, their hearts are in the right place. They play music to give glory to God, not themselves and explicitly say as much. You can argue that their hearts are in the wrong place and their motives are ill, but it’s really something between them and God. But even empirically, these bands, including Switchfoot, have done MUCH good in the name of Christ and bring glory to him.
Sure, the majority of the music scene is NOT glorifying to God. But until you show me where you think ALL of these Christian rock musicians are falling short, I can’t argue much more on this point than I have.
This brings me to Jon Foreman, Switchfoot’s singer, who I believe came out to speak with your group. He came to open up some dialogue, and start a conversation with you and your group. All he got in return was a one-way yelling contest from one of your friends (the large fellow in the video) Correct me if I’m wrong, but did you even ATTEMPT to reach out to the band aside from your protest? (As you say, there is more than one way to evangelize) It’s obvious you care about their influence on the populace, so why didn’t you follow up with them, away from the chaos on the street. Mr. Foreman all but ASKED to sit down and chat with you guys, and after walking into what anyone can see is a hostile environment. You can certainly say those Isaiah 58 trumpets were sounding that night! You can disagree, but I would argue that Jon Foreman presented himself humbly that night. Nevertheless, your “grace to the humble” was lacking from what I saw. So much so, that the noise made intelligible conversation almost impossible. I’ve met him myself, and he’s a very nice person, who I’m sure would have welcomed conversation like the one we’re having now. But back to our earlier discussion.
Where exactly does it say the woman at the well did not need rebuking? The person she was living with AT THAT SAME TIME was not her husband. (John 4:18) Jesus simultaneously pointed out her sin and showed her that there WAS grace to be had. You argued that rebuking and mocking are “ABSOLUTELY necessary to open their eyes to their need of God’s grace.”
That’s well and good. But you need to PRESENT God’s grace as well! That there IS grace to be had at all. I have a hard time finding any message of grace in what I’ve seen. Perhaps it’s hidden behind those trumpets.
Furthermore, I again quote Paul in Galatians 6:1- “If a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such a one in the spirit of meekness.” (That’s KJV, just for you)
I would hardly consider your protests to be meek, in any sense of the word. Moving on:
You said, “And you think “countless abominations” were the mark of David’s life? You do realize words mean things don’t you? You do realize “countless” means without number don’t you? He committed adultery with Bathsheba, murdered her husband, numbered Israel, and failed at being the patriarch (father) he should have been. That’s the sins Scripture list. Most certainly not countless. The difference between David’s sins (along with Noah and Abraham’s) and the sins of professing Christians today is that they REPENTED of them. They didn’t make excuse for them and justify themselves, but they FORSOOK them and determined by God’s grace to NEVER commit them again, which leads me to me next point. . .”
Apologies. I seem to have really offended you with the word countless. Anyway that’s mostly true…if you look past David’s concubines with which he had children. Pretty sure that’s a big deal. He and Solomon had them throughout their lives, and I was unable to find where they repented of these sins. The same goes for Jacob. From this you can see several examples of men doing exactly what you said they couldn’t do. The lives of these men do not fit with your interpretation at all.
I read your articles, and the one on the Romans 7 man really didn’t really have concrete proof that he WASNT a saved Christian OR Paul himself. The article seemed to be largely confirmation bias. Nevertheless I’ll do more reading from other scholars and see what I can find to support your side.
It’s true. The world will always hate Christians. But Proverbs 15:1, for example, makes the point that we shouldn’t stir up anger and wrath unnecessarily. Stephen the Martyr
So you said you have sinned. Same here. And I agree with you that Christian Nature is better. But that’s not OUR nature anyway. It’s God’s nature, which we partake of, having ESCAPED the world. Escaped. Christians are the lucky ones who have escaped the prison. And it’s our job to preach the freedom of Christ, which he have knowledge of since we were once imprisoned as well. It is not we who are better. Paul realized this in Galatians 2:20.
Eager to hear back from you as always.
Grace and Peace,
Just a follow up on my last Email,
Regarding unrepentant sins and Solomon specifically, I realize this issue is a separate can of worms. It isn’t really relevant to our conversation so I’ll refocus on the original subject matter.
Here’s what I think we do agree on:
1. “Sinners” in the Bible (and in your preaching) refers to those who are unsaved and habitually sin.
2. The Bible -does- distinguish between Christians (as Saints) and non-Christians. (sinners) You’re correct in that distinction.
3. Aside from Christ, all who have walked the earth have sinned, and are still subject to sinning each day (even if we do repent and determine never to sin again) it’s simply one of the side affects to being human.
What we’ve been arguing over is really just your expression of these points.
While you, as a believer, may no longer be a sinner, acknowledging our sinful past as part of ministry is critical for several reasons:
1. To illustrate the redeeming effect Christ has had on our lives (testimony, Paul did it lots)
2. To avoid either making Christianity seem impossible (“how could I ever live a life without sinning at all?”) OR the ‘perceived hypocrite’ effect I mentioned previously. (Which is a very real pitfall Christians should strive to avoid through humility)
To your credit, a little before 5:30 in the YouTube clip, you -do- briefly mention the way to salvation, but only for about 10 seconds in a 15 minute video. It’s completely overshadowed by the “God hates Switchfoot and Christian Rock,” mantra.
Toward the very end of the video, one of the members of your group says to a passer-by, “We’re throwing you a rope!”
If the rope is salvation, you did little rope throwing. You just pointed out the danger. A rope is still needed to escape.
Honestly, logic dictates that people -on their way- to a concert have mostly made up their minds that they want to see the band playing, so maybe you should give reasons WHY they shouldn’t go in to see Switchfoot play, instead of just saying “ITS OF THE WORLD!” That is, if there is indeed a legitimate reason, or proof that it’s not pleasing to God. But I covered that in my last email. People need to see the actual FAULTS a Switchfoot concert holds, and you showed them only rhetoric.
You did briefly mention something like: “Anything that moves the body before the spirit is sinful.” Or something to that effect. Is that from scripture? I’m not familiar with it. And what exactly qualifies as “moving the body,” which includes Switchfoot’s music, yet excludes biblical examples of song and dance?
But what if you’re right, and I’m wrong about Switchfoot? Then you may have really let down the people you were preaching to by failing to clearly articulate Switchfoot’s ungodliness. Anyway, I hope you can see why I have the concerns that I do.
Grace and Peace,
RESPONSE TO 1ST EMAIL
Hello again Ryan,
Sorry for taking so long to get back with you. Looks like we both stay pretty busy, so I’m sure you understand.
You asked a lot of very good questions, and I’m glad for that. It gives me a wide open door to answer many of the same questions that thousands of people have concerning this whole Switchfoot issue. Of course up until this point, as you’ve already observed, our conversation has been little about Switchfoot and more about doctrine and evangelism, nevertheless, I believe those are great foundations to build our final analysis on Switchfoot.
Considering the fact we’ve hardly touched on Switchfoot, I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that I haven’t posted this article yet, but it is a very important one that covers many of the questions/concerns of your last two emails:
Of course there are a few of your points the article does not cover that I will do my best to answer. First of all, do you realize what the original meaning of “rock and roll” actually is? It refers to fornicating in the back of a car, hence making the vehicle “rock and roll.” The Bible is explicitly clear that no fornicator will inherit the Kingdom of God (1 Cor. 6:9-10; Gal. 5:19-21). Now consider what the term “Christian” means. Christ-like. Does “Christian” Rock still look acceptable in the sight of God? Would you still be so bold as to say that God can possibly be pleased with people who attempt to mix the Holy Spirit of Christ with the unholy spirit of fornication? Christ-like fornication – that’s exactly what “Christian” Rock is. If this does not strike you as absolute blasphemy, you are utterly blind and deceived.
About Jon Forman himself, you made the following claims:
“This brings me to Jon Foreman, Switchfoot’s singer, who I believe came out to speak with your group. He came to open up some dialogue, and start a conversation with you and your group. All he got in return was a one-way yelling contest from one of your friends (the large fellow in the video) Correct me if I’m wrong, but did you even ATTEMPT to reach out to the band aside from your protest? (As you say, there is more than one way to evangelize) It’s obvious you care about their influence on the populace, so why didn’t you follow up with them, away from the chaos on the street. Mr. Foreman all but ASKED to sit down and chat with you guys, and after walking into what anyone can see is a hostile environment. You can certainly say those Isaiah 58 trumpets were sounding that night!”
I will allow my commentary on Titus 1:10-13 to explain why there was only ONE way to deal with Foreman as we did:
For there are many UNRULY and VAIN TALKERS and DECEIVERS,
Christian Rock n’ Rollers/Christlike fornicators fit that description to a T. Read link above for details.
specially they of the CIRCUMCISION:
Professing leaders of God’s people. Christian Rockers/Christlike fornicators?
WHOSE MOUTHS MUST BE STOPPED,
Still think our “yelling contest” that didn’t allow him to get a word in was unbiblical?
who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, FOR FILTHY LUCRE’S SAKE.
Lucre means money. Charging people for “ministry” (if you can even call it that)? And before you even try to turn that around on me, I charge NO ONE for our ministry. No one is obligated to pay for our services, we are supported by free-will offerings.
One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. This witness is true. Wherefore REBUKE THEM SHARPLY, THAT THEY MAY BE SOUND IN THE FAITH.
Well, so much for, “You people aren’t doing anything but driving others away from Christianity!”
Ryan, instead of siding with a Christlike fornicator against street preachers of righteousness, wake up (1 Cor. 15:34) and realize that there was nothing “humble” about Foreman’s actions. A façade of humility to cover up his pride and covetousness at best. He knew good and well he was being filmed, so lest he ruin his “nice guy of rock n’ roll” reputation, “better to just stay cool and try to reason with/offer my enemies some water before all of my fans”, right? Don’t flatter yourself Ryan (John 7:24). Like his father the devil (Jn. 8:44), Foreman offers just enough truth for people to buy into his lies (Matt. 4:5-7). He’s a wolf in sheep’s clothing, and the kind of fruit (followers) he produces screams this loud and clear (Matt. 7:15-20). The greatest enemy to Christianity is not an obvious devil, but a false Christ (2 Cor. 11:13-15). So what if he’s a nice person! Do you think rapists and pedophiles lure their victims by being “mean” people? Nice personalities mean NOTHING to God, but that which is highly esteemed among men (“Christian” Rock) is an abomination in His sight (Lk. 16:15). Hell is FULL of “nice” people who NEVER possessed the love of God (Matt. 7:21-24; Jn. 14:15; 1 Cor. 13:1-3; 1 Jn. 4:17, 5:3):
Concerning the whole woman at the well issue, gently pointing someone’s sin out in conversation (exactly what Christ did) and sharply rebuking an ungodly stranger (what we did to Switchfoot and his followers) is NOT the same thing. While we’re on the topic, it’s interesting to note that you think Foreman needed a more graceful approach with no rebuke while the woman at the well DID need a rebuke, even though JESUS CHRIST clearly chose not to. Way to side with a Christlike fornicator against the Lord of lords there Ryan. Way to condemn the just and justify the wicked. God hates that (Pr. 17:15). And for the record Book, Galatians 6:1 is talking about a repentant brother in the Lord, not an unrepentant hypocrite like Jon Foreman. Nice try though.
Our message of grace is not hidden behind trumpets, but behind your (along with THOUSANDS of others) selective hearing. You murmur and complain constantly about “to much hate, not enough grace”, but the true love and grace of God has been so abused and mis-taught in this Gospel-hardened country that I (or any other street preacher at that) could spend the rest of my life preaching nothing but Hell-fire and damnation and it wouldn’t budge the “law vs. grace” scale one bit. “Love” still abounds. After all, “love alone is worth the fight”, right? But alas, sin and iniquity abound, everybody knowing full well that God loves them, all the while missing the more critical issue: DO YOU LOVE GOD? If you refuse to stop sinning, the answer is a resounding “NO” (Jn. 14:15). That’s our message, and there is nothing unloving about it (Lev. 19:17; Rev. 3:19). There is nothing “unnecessary” about it. Once again, your application of Proverbs 15:1 is so out of place as to say that stirring sinners to anger while preaching the Bible to them is the equivalent to saying something selfish to someone you don’t like just for the sake of offending them. The two are not the same. If they were, that would mean the Lord Jesus Christ was guilty of sin in Luke 23:5.
And please spare me from this whole false humility of, “I agree with you that Christian Nature is better. But that’s not OUR nature anyway. It’s God’s nature, which we partake of, having ESCAPED the world. Escaped. Christians are the lucky ones who have escaped the prison. And it’s our job to preach the freedom of Christ, which he have knowledge of since we were once imprisoned as well. It is not we who are better. Paul realized this in Galatians 2:20.” It’s not like I WANT sinners to go to Hell or pride myself in my own righteousness. It’s not like I NEVER preach love, mercy, grace, forgiveness, etc. I haven’t forgot about the same pit of sin I use to be in that the rebels I preach to are in. But the truth still stands: THE RIGHTEOUS (not just WHO he got his righteousness from) is more excellent than his neighbor (Pr. 12:26).
And until you stop giving mere opinion on your Romans 7 position, there’s more than enough Bible in my article to prove it is not a Christian experience. Your wrong on the whole concubine issue as well. Read this: http://www.ukapologetics.net/concubine.html.
RESPONSE TO 2ND EMAIL
Looking over your last email, I’m fairly confident I addressed most of the issues in it that you had already reworded in the one before that. There are, however, two topics toward the bottom I would like to address. First, you said:
“Honestly, logic dictates that people -on their way- to a concert have mostly made up their minds that they want to see the band playing, so maybe you should give reasons WHY they shouldn’t go in to see Switchfoot play, instead of just saying “ITS OF THE WORLD!” That is, if there is indeed a legitimate reason, or proof that it’s not pleasing to God. But I covered that in my last email. People need to see the actual FAULTS a Switchfoot concert holds, and you showed them only rhetoric.
But what if you’re right, and I’m wrong about Switchfoot? Then you may have really let down the people you were preaching to by failing to clearly articulate Switchfoot’s ungodliness.”
The simple answer to this concern is this whole conversation we’ve been having. This is the whole reason why I plan on posting it as an article on my website, so people can have an elaborate, thought out, point-by-point discussion to look at concerning literally the SAME questions that I’m getting asked about over and over.
There is a time and a season for everything (Eccl. 3:1-8), and it is most certainly not the time to “articulate” EVERY spiritual problem that encamps Switchfoot/Christian Rock to people walking by at a concert that I have literally only seconds to warn and preach to. What you saw in the video was fully calculated. I knew good and well there would be many outraged people wanting answers to our claims and actions. That’s exactly why I put my website at the end of all our videos, and man did it ever traffic some views in just a week’s time! Almost 5,000 on one of those days. And now, because you and I have taken the time to have a detailed and intelligent discussion about the matter, I will be able post this article and email the link back to all the people who emailed me in an outrage over what they saw. To God be the glory!
Your last concern was about the statement I made, “Anything that moves the body before the spirit is sinful”
What I simply mean by this is, they that are in the flesh CANNOT please God (Rom. 8:8). This is perhaps the most critical issue concerning the Contemporary Christian Music industry (not ministry) at large.
“They that are in the flesh cannot please God” obviously does not mean simply having flesh. If that were the case then nobody on planet earth could possibly please God. “They that are in the flesh” describe those who have attitudes, motives, desires, thoughts, actions, etc. that aim ultimately at pleasing self rather than pleasing God. In this sense, it is impossible to please God while your final ambition is to please yourself, and I make a bold charge that Switchfoot/”Christian” Rock specializes in producing people JUST like that. People so enamored with using the Gospel for their own selfish agenda’s instead of allowing the Gospel to use them for it’s Christ glorifying agenda.
For example, what you see at CCM concerts are not droves of people just eagerly seeking to please the Lord, obey the Bible, live holy and sin-free, and be as zealous and on fire for the Lord Jesus Christ as they possibly can, despite what the world or their peers think. No, that is not AT ALL what you see. What is displayed and manifested is a generation that wants to think, look, sound, talk, dress, worship, and live contrary to the Word of God, all the while slapping a “Christian” label on what their doing, miserably and willfully deceived into thinking that God accepts it. The kinds of people that populate these CCM concerts are fornicators, masturbators, adulterers, hypocrites, immodest and loud mouth women, effeminate men, violent men, people who love blatantly ungodly music and entertainment, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God, potty mouths, sodomites, drunkards, tattoo lovers, pot-smokers, church gossips, people who claim that Christ is not the ONLY way to Heaven, and many other forms of life that are contrary to the holy law of God. Don’t you dare try to deny it. It’s true, you know it, and God will not tolerate that kind of worship, because they that are in the flesh CANNOT please God.
Always siding with Him against the world,
The following is a list of 80 questions that my good friend Bro. Randy Hartinger asked Dan Corner after he (Dan) challenged Bro. Randy to a debate over Facebook concerning the perfection of the King James Bible. Dan Corner has influenced many of young Christians to abandon their faith in God’s perfect and preserved Word in English, but he has NEVER answered Bro. Randy back concerning these questions. May they be a refreshing reminder to all who have enough common sense to know that a perfect God can’t possibly have two perfect Bibles, and an ever haunting nightmare for those who don’t.
Dan Corner, Greetings.
1. Dan, will you please take the 5 personal favorite errors that GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT showed you in the King James Bible and will you type out the following in this fashion: “I, Dan Corner, have five personal favorite errors that God the Holy Spirit showed me…” and then list them? I’ve never had any takers on that in a quarter century, and I wondered if you might be the first to not disappoint me?
2. What is your final authority in all matters of doctrine and deed and faith and practice and what is your basis for this authority to gainsay the King James Bible?
3. I noted that you often state “the” (definite article) Textus Receptus. Are you not aware that there are DOZENS OF T.R.’S out yonder? Why use the definite article “the” there?
4. By the way, since you are able to correct the King James Bible, I’d like to issue you what I call the “Do the Body of Christ a Favor” charge/challenge. If you are able to find all the alleged “errors” in a King James Bible, why not fix them and print a Corner King James and do the body of Christ a favor? Are you qualified? Are you qualified to correct any of the words of a King James Bible?
5. Are you aware that one of the 47 translators was handpicked by Henry VIII (he had a lot of clout) to tutor Queen Elizabeth in Greek because the KJB translator was said to be the most exact Greek scholar in the ENTIRE world of his ERA? Would you say you are even the BEST GREEK SCHOLAR IN YOUR CITY, SIR? I know you would not say you are the best in your city, much less state, country, or continent, globe, or the BEST OF YOUR ENTIRE ERA/generation. Keep in mind these 47 King James translators ALL CHECKED EACH OTHER’S WORK to come to unanimous decisions, correct? Would you be tempted for a ½ second to think you know “Greek” (or Hebrew) better than these 47 that all checked each other’s work? Did you know that one of them studied Greek literally 16 hours a day? Did you know that one of them read the entire Hebrew O.T. at the age of 5 and could write it legibly by age 6 while you and I were still mastering “Curious George Goes to Town” at age 5-6? In short, WHO DO WE THINK WE ARE to usurp our opinions over supernaturally raised up chosen vessels of God to bring forth His word to the last days? Selah.
6. Out of 31,102 verses in the Bible, can you please list one single verse that you know beyond any shadow of doubt is the perfect and inerrant words of God in English and how you substantiate that claim in an above-board, non-nebulous, unambiguous, non-parabolic, non-hyperbolic way? Can you collect your thoughts and control them long enough to express a cogent pattern of reasoning in giving an example of one verse that you know is absolutely perfect and how you substantiate that claim, Sir?
7. Dear soul, is it even remotely possible that the error you think you found between the two covers of the King James Bible was actually only between your two ears?
8. How can you use something that contains error as a CRITERIA FOR JUDGING ERROR and how is this justifiably logical?
9. Do you believe any doctrines THAT ARE NOT MADE UP OF SPECIFIC BIBLE VERSES?
10. How do you extract perfect doctrines from that which is IMPERFECT?
11. Have you ever noticed the following observable phenomena? The Atheist/Agnostic/Skeptic has 2 Maxims which are 1- There is no God and 2- I hate Him so much. The Bible Agnostic and Scripture Skeptic has 2 Maxims as well: 1- There is no perfect translation on planet Earth and 2- I hate a perfect translation. And why is that so true?
12. Were there any homosexuals or drunks on the translation committees of any of the versions you recommend on your website?
13. Could textual critics be wrong about anything or everything they know about the Bible?
14. Why is there no zeal for any other English translation besides the King James Bible and why are there no NKJV-only or NIV-only groups or so-called movements?
15. Have you ever personally handled any N.T. or O.T. manuscript and if you had all the money in the world would you be able to accomplish this feat? Do you trust that each manuscript is authentic and verifiable and dated accurately and do you trust that your texts that you use are substantiated with concrete and observable manuscripts? Is it possible that better manu-scraps will be discovered tomorrow?
16. I noticed something years ago. Why do you use the NIV in your Believer’s Conditional Security book and then, when it’s convenient, use the KING JAMES BIBLE rendering of Romans 8:1 since the CONDITION “who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit” is missing from the NIV, ESV, etc.?
17. Are the verses of the Bible guilty until proven innocent or innocent until proven guilty? Do the scriptures correct scholars or do scholars correct scriptures? Do you correct the King James Bible or does it correct you?
18. Do you believe the science of textual criticism gets better and better? If yes, Does this Evolutionary Fixation comport with the 2nd law of thermodynamics which states that matter is winding down and tending to chaos?
19. What is God’s Elect Language for the Endtimes? What language covers the largest geographical spread of any language? What is the most common secondary language in the world today? Where is absolute time? Where is absolutely longitude and latitude on a map? What is the most diversified of all the languages? What is the language of diplomacy? What is the language of computers in the age of knowledge being increased as prophesied by Daniel 12? Do you reserve God’s right to give us his inerrant, perfect, preserved, absolute words in His elect language for the endtimes?
20. Is your theological God capable of producing a PERFECT TRANSLATION and in the scriptures, when God translated something, was His translation always better than the original?
21. What single book has had the biggest impact upon GOD’S ELECT LANGUAGE FOR THE ENDTIMES WITH SHAKESPEARE AT A CLOSE SECOND?
22. Have evil spirits, the pride of man, the love of money had any bearing on translations and the translation issue today?
23. Should you put God on trial or does God put you on trial? Should you put the word of God on trial or does it put YOU ON TRIAL?
24. True or False? The originals were never assimilated in a book and the word “Bible” means book. FOLLOWUP: IS THE BIBLE YOUR FINAL AUTHORITY IN ALL MATTERS OF FAITH/PRACTICE/DOCTRINE/DEED?
25. Is the King James Bible scripture? See 2 Tim. 3:16. IS THE KING JAMES BIBLE GIVEN BY INSPIRATION?
26. Is God going to judge us by an absolute standard of truth and would a just Judge give you a document, tell you you’ll be judged by it, and deliberately ensure that there is no perfect and inerrant and tangible and “in hand” source of that document?
27. What/where is your absolute standard found and where is the meter stick standard of the Bible today?
28. Where is your purely objective way to substantiate all of the 66 books of the Bible? How do you prove FROM THE BIBLE THAT THERE ARE ONLY 66 BOOKS?
29. Was King James’ heart in the hand of the Lord and being turned of and by the Lord (Prov. 21:1; 16:9)?
30. Did Paul’s belief that some of his writings were his own opinion have any bearing on whether they were scripture? (1 Cor. 7:6, 25). Then why do you incessantly insist that the King James translators had to perfectly understand exactly what God was doing through them?
31. Are you really a closet admirer of James White since your ranting about the KJB bears remarkable resemblance?
32. Is it not true that because of your continuing battles with King James Only Baptists, you have knee-jerk reacted into an imbalanced side of the pendulum swing and metaphorically broke your neck on the other side with respect to the KJB issue?
33. If taking away from the word of God and adding to it results in a severe penalty and this is God’s last warning in the Bible, which translations are cursed rather than blessed and how do you substantiate this claim?
34. How do you know if a translation is accurate without BEGINNING WITH A COMPLETE AND ACCURATE BOOK?
35. Why does the NKJV omit “nevertheless I live” from Galatians 2:20 and why does it change “I am crucified” to “I HAVE BEEN crucified”?
36. When will you admit that the King James Bible is the perfect word of God due to the impossibility of the contrary?
37. Since you stand against the sin of sodomy, why do you recommend the NKJV when “sodomite” is translated as a generic “perverted person” in the NKJV (Deut. 23:17; I Kgs. 14:24; 15:12; 22:46; II Kgs 23:7)?
38. When you stand up and preach, do you tell the people that you don’t believe that anything you are quoting in English is perfect since you are not quoting Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic or would that set a wrong tone for your dissertation to follow?
39. What doctrine of the Bible DID YOU NOT GET FROM A TRANSLATION and was it a PERFECT TRANSLATION? If not, HOW DO YOU KNOW THE DOCTRINE IS PERFECT?
40. Some more questions while I’m at it, Dear Sir. Have patience with thy servant and he’ll pay thee all the questions he oweth. Why do you state the NWT aligns itself with the KJB on your website and fail to mention that the NWT ACTUALLY IS MORE IN LINE WITH THE NIV AND ESV THAT YOU RECOMMEND?
41. You said in your post on my wall “TRUTH IS TRUTH.” But the plot thickens…. Take an NIV and ESV and look up Matt. 17:21, Mark 9:29, 1 Cor. 7:5, and Acts 10:30 and ask yourself WHAT HAPPENED TO FASTING and is this TRUTH?
42. Are the following verses TRUTH in the NIV/ESV Matthew 17:21, Matthew 18:11, Matthew 23:14, Mark 7:16, Mark 9:44, Mark 9:46, Mark 11:26, Mark 15:28, Luke 17:36, Luke 23:17, John 5:4, Acts 8:37, Acts 15:34, Acts 24:7, Acts 28:29, Romans 16:24 seeing they are MISSING?
43. You said TRUTH IS TRUTH. Which here is TRUTH? Heb. 3:16 in the KJB, speaking of those that provoked the Lord: “howbeit NOT ALL that came out of Egypt by Moses.” The NIV says the opposite with a rhetorical question: “Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt?” (NASB the same)?
44. WHAT TRUTH IS TRUTH HERE? Hosea 10:1 in the KJB says, “Israel is an empty vine.” The NIV says, “Israel was a spreading vine.” (The NASB says “Israel is a luxuriant vine.”)?
45. WHAT TRUTH IS TRUTH HERE, DAN? Proverbs 26:22 KJB: “The words of a talebearer are as wounds.” NIV says, “The words of a gossip are like choice morsels.” (NASB says ‘dainty morsels.’)?
46. WHAT TRUTH IS TRUTH HERE, DAN? Jer. 51:3 KJB: “Let the archer bend his bow.” NIV says, “Let NOT the archer string his bow.”?
47. WHAT TRUTH IS TRUTH HERE, DAN? Eccl. 8:10 about the wicked: KJB “were FORGOTTEN” NIV “receive PRAISE” ESV “were PRAISED”?
48. AND HERE? Prov. 25:23 KJB: “The north wind driveth away rain.” NIV says, “As a north wind BRINGS rain.”?
49. AND HERE? Hosea 11:12 KJB, “Judah yet ruleth with God.” NIV – “Judah is UNRULY AGAINST God.” (NASB “Judah is also UNRULY AGAINST God”)?
50. AND HERE? Col 2:18 KJB “things which he hath NOT seen” NIV, TNIC “what he has seen” and NASB “visions he has seen”?
51. AND HERE? Job 16:20 KJB, “My friends scorn me.” NIV “My intercessor is my friend.”?
52. AND HERE? Ps. 29:9 KJB, “The voice of the Lord maketh the hinds to calve.” NIV “The voice of the Lord twists the oaks.”?
53. AND WHAT TRUTH IS TRUTH HERE? Isaiah 9:3 KJB “NOT increased the joy” NIV, TNIV “increased their joy” NKJV, ESV, HCSB “increased its joy” NASB “increased their gladness”?
54. AND HERE? Prov. 18:24 KJB “A man that hath friends must show himself friendly.” NIV “A man of many companions may come to ruin.”?
55. AND HERE? Psalm 10:4-5 about the wicked: KJB “His way are always GRIEVOUS” NIV “His ways are always PROSPEROUS” NKJV “His ways are always PROSPERING” ESV “His ways PROSPER at all
times” HCSB “His ways are always SECURE”?
56. AND HERE? Isaiah 9:1 KJB “…afterward did more greviously afflict Galilee…” NIV “in the future he will HONOR Galilee.”?
57. AND HERE? 2 Samuel 21:19 the NIV says that Elhanan “KILLED GOLIATH” and the KJB says Elahanan “KILLED THE BROTHER OF GOLIATH.”?
58. AND HERE? Hebrews 11:11 in the KJB says, “THROUGH FAITH ALSO SARA HERSELF received strength to conceive seed” (Sara having the faith), but the NIV says, “By faith, ABRAHAM, EVEN THOUGH HE WAS PAST AGE…” They take the faith of Sara away. Some NIV’s change this and some don’t. My “Spirit of the Reformation Study Bible NIV” changes this in the very text itself… By the way, my wife received great encouragement from this verse when she had our 7th child…?
59. YOU SAID TRUTH IS TRUTH. WHAT IS TRUTH HERE? 1 Cor. 7:38 in the KJB says, “he that giveth her in marriage doeth well” making the verse about the Patriarch (father) giving his virgin daughter away in marriage, BUT THE NIV CHANGES THIS TO “he who marries the virgin does right” MAKING THE VERSE ABOUT SOMEBODY ABOUT TO MARRY A VIRGIN (stripping away patriarchy and the whole custom of giving in marriage)?
60. I noted that there are warnings after warnings on your site against the KJB, but I don’t see any warnings against other versions. Why do you single out the KJB?
61. In your Flash Cartoon and on your site, you state that the NRSV, the NASB, the ESV, the NKJV, and the NIV are “reliable” and “reputable” versions which all use “modern English.” Are you UNAWARE that Old English would be the Wessex Gospels, middle English would be the Wycliffe, and the King James Bible is EARLY MODERN ENGLISH?
62. In your Flash Cartoon, you have a long-haired guy being the KJBonly person, and the short-haired guy championing the new versions. Have you not noticed that most King James only men have short hair and most long-haired male “Christians” in violation of 1st Cor. 11 WILL USE A MODERN TRANSLATION? Wonder why THAT IS?
63. In your Flash Cartoon, you basically ask about where the word of God is before 1611. Since you ask where the perfect words of God WERE before 1611 above, will you allow me to address this as follows? WHERE WAS THE WORD OF GOD BEFORE 1611? Here’s how I’ve answered that for over a decade now: 1. First, I say, “Where was it? The same place your face was before you washed it……………………………….. BEHIND THE DIRT.” God kept a remnant of believers that had His word but BIBLICAL CHRISTIANITY WAS NOT A MAJORITY ON THIS GLOBE. Take, for example, the DARK AGES. Where was Biblical Christianity then? BEHIND THE DIRT. 2. I say, “I have a BETTER QUESTION FOR YOU. WHERE *IS* THE WORD OF GOD IN 2013?” 3. Where was JESUS CHRIST FROM BIRTH TO THE HOUSE OF JOSEPH AND MARY, AND FROM THERE TO AGE 12 STUMPING THE DOCTORS, and from AGE 12 UNTIL AGE 30? Jesus is the WORD OF GOD and there is not a PERFECT HISTORICAL TRAIL preserved of HIS WHEREABOUTS. However, I KNOW WHERE HE IS *RIGHT NOW*. He’s IN MY HEART. I know where the BIBLE IS RIGHT NOW. It’s IN MY HEART, IN MY HYMNBOOKS, IN MY HOUSE, IN MY *HAND*, ETC.
64. In your Flash Cartoon, you said the KJB translators never claimed inspiration. DID ANY WRITER OF THE BIBLE CLAIM INSPIRATION? For example, did JAMES CLAIM INSPIRATION? Did PETER CLAIM INSPIRATION? Does one have to KNOW THEY ARE INSPIRED TO BE INSPIRED?
65. In your Flash Cartoon, you have the guy saying those who don’t use a KJB are lost. Who teaches such a thing?
66. In your Flash Cartoon, you state “the Textus Receptus used by the KJB has been revised numerous times.” How do you know specifically which ONE T.R. was used by the translators?
67. In your Flash Cartoon, you state the homosexual was removed from the NIV committee. I wrote the International Bible Society and got the lists of translators and they included Virginia Ramey Mollencott (lesbian) in the list of translators AFTER THE NIV CAME OUT. Wonder why? Why does she speak in an interview of her involvement with the NIV? Did you know that Marten Woudstra was the chairman of the O.T. of the NIV and CAME OUT OF THE CLOSET AS A HOMOSEXUAL?
68. In your Flash Cartoon, you state “the 1611 KJB is the worst version of all.” You also stated on your website “The King James Version of the Bible (KJB) is both a frustrating and deceiving translation to use.” Would you then say that the King James Bible is THE MOST DECEIVING TRANSLATION? Why do you hate the KJB so?
69. You mock the Apocrypha being in between the testaments for a season in the original KJB (they had to use Jerome’s Latin Vulgate for this), and yet why do you ENDORSE versions whose underlying texts ACTUALLY CONTAIN THE APOCRYPHA INTERDISPERSED INTO THE O.T. AND EVEN N.T. APOCRYPHAL BOOKS (like the NIV, etc.).?
70. You make a big ado about Calvinists on the KJB committee and then why do you use the NIV which was translated AT CALVIN’S COLLEGE and contains Calvinistic translations like changing “good will toward men” in Luke 2:14 to “peace to those on whom his favor rests.” (inferring unconditional election)?
71. You stated on your website that “charity” is a “deceiving word” in the KJB and are you unaware that charity is the noun form of “cherish” and charity is GIVING and that real love gives while false love (lust) takes away?
72. You stated that Heb. 10:23 “Let us hold fast the profession of our FAITH” is a mistranslation of “elpis.” First off, how do you know that the word “elpis” is pronounced the same as “elpis” in other places? What ancient pronunciation guide will you consult to ensure this is NOT A HOMOGRAPH or even worse, BOTH A HOMOGRAPH AND A HOMONYM SIMULTANEOUSLY (eg. In English, “lie” and “lie” or “fair” and “fair”)? Since one of the King James translators HAD THE LARGEST ANCIENT GREEK LIBRARY IN THE ENTIRE WORLD, would he (and the other 46 that checked each others’ work) know Greek a tad more than, say, YOU? And if indeed you “could” prove that this is not a homograph in Greek, how do you insist on uniform translation when all the “reliable” translations you recommend and you use DO NOT EMPLOY UNIFORM TRANSLATION of all Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic words? Where do you get your translational standard that demands uniform universal translation? Are you aware that the NKJV, NASV, NIV, ESV, etc. ALL HAVE INSTANCES where they translate Greek and Hebrew words UNIVERSALLY THE SAME EXCEPT IN ONLY “ONE” INSTANCE? Where is your attack upon them?
73. As for your alleged “error” with “faith” (instead of “hope” as you say) in Heb. 10:23, are you aware that the verb form of the noun elpis is “elpizo” and this is translated as “to hope” not only in the KJB, but also in the NASV and NIV that you call “reliable.” Will you now renounce the NIV and change all your books or will you just ignore this little revelation?
74. Did you know that even ol’ Noah Webster (master of words and 15 different languages, just like ONE OF THE 47 KJB TRANSLATORS) in his own Webster’s translation of 1833 – that he translated “faith” there in Hebrews 10:23? Do you know words better than Noah Webster and yet you call this a “glaring error”?
75. You state that the “Spirit itself” translation of the KJB in Rom. 8:16,26 is an error and inconsistent since the Holy Ghost is called “He” elsewhere. DO YOU LIKEWISE ATTACK THE NIV FOR calling the Holy Ghost an “it” in 1st John 2:27 “But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as IT has taught you, remain in him.”? Do you attack the NIV as inconsistent, or rather use it all over your website and books? Do you see the gross hypocrisy?
Hey, Dan. Have you ever been to a hospital after the birth of a baby and saw a banner on the door that said, “IT’S a BOY!” OR “IT’S a GIRL!”? Did you attack them for calling that person an “it”? Have you ever said to a woman with child, “Is IT going to be a boy or girl?” Hey, Dan. Did your phone ever ring and your wife answered and you said, “Who is IT?” Were you expecting some androgynous creature to be on the other side? And then she said, “IT’S your MOTHER.” Did you attack your wife for calling your MOTHER an IT? Ever heard a knock at the door and yelled, “Who is IT?” You mean “it” CAN MEAN A MALE? Get the point? IT’S you that has the error; get IT? Be not afraid to answer, Dan. IT is but I.
76. Hey, Dan. You recommend the NRSV over the KJB on your website. Are you aware that in John 1:32 the NRSV actually (gasp) calls the Holy Spirit “it”? “And John testified, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and IT remained on him.” Will you attack the NRSV now? Or how about when the ESV calls a child an ‘it’ in Rev. 12:4? Will you attack the ESV that you recommend?
77. Hey, Dan. Did you know the Greek word “autos” must always reflect the GENDER OF ITS ANTECEDANT? Do you know what the GENDER of “pneuma” for Spirit is? NEUTER. Therefore, the KJB translators, with fear and much trembling, PROPERLY TRANSLATED “Spirit itself” and your recommended versions MISTRANSLATED BY IGNORING THE GENDER, right? Furthermore, are you aware of a figure of speech called ANTIPERSONIFICATION and why do you DENY THE HOLY GHOST THIS POETIC FIGURE OF SPEECH?
78. You said on your website that 99.99% of KJBOnly proponents CANNOT EVEN UNDERSTAND THE KJB. Wow. Did you pluck that number from thin air? Can you explain to me why my children from the time they can read – they read from a KJB and everyday tell me what they learned from their chapters and actually UNDERSTAND? For example, my children know what a “penny” is versus the NIV’s “denarius.” Amen? Or the KJB’s “fat” versus the “verdant” of the NKJV. Amen? Do you think sinners understand “hell” better than the new versions’ “sheol” or “hades”? Ever been to a construction site?
79. I reckon these questions will do for starters. Will you answer every one of these questions fully and completely so we can get this discussion underway and make progress?
80. Will you please re-read these questions and not employ Invincible Wall of Ignorance or a One Fell Swoop Dismissal or Hasty Generalizations (Thank you in advance)?
Looking forward to your non-side-stepping and nail-downable answers and thank you for coming to my wall and engaging this matter.
Under Final Authority, – R
By Britt Williams (used by permission)
The doctrine of “original sin” is a very difficult one. Unfortunately, the Scriptures are not explicit in detailing the universal condition of men and the complexities and dynamics of how Adam’s sin affected his posterity. Nonetheless, I do believe there are some theological absolutes.
I hold to what I refer to as a “modified view of original sin”, namely:
1. I believe men are born with a “fallen nature” (due to the fall we are not what God originally intended), but not a “sinful nature”. To become a “sinner”, a man must commit sin.
2. By “fallen”, I mean men are born under the consequences, not the guilt or penalty, of Adam’s transgression.
3. Thus, babies, before they mature to moral accountability, are considered morally innocent as they are incapable of making moral choices. Should they die, they would go to heaven seeing they are unable to commit sin (Rom 4:15). However, we do well to remember, there is a vast difference between being “innocent” and being “righteous”. When God called man “good” (say, for example, in Gen 1:21) it is debatable that he was attributing moral character to man’s nature as man had yet not exhibited a moral choice. “Evil” requires moral choice, and likewise, so does “Good”. I believe God was referring to innocence.
4. All are born physically depraved (physical weakness, death, etc., as a consequence of the fall) and this contributes a “bent toward” sin. How this “bent” or “tendency” toward sin is transferred from generation to generation I am content to confess, “I do not know”, but I believe it is there. Moreover, this “bent” is difficult to define. It is not something resulting from an addition to our nature, but rather a subtraction. Fallen men are born estranged from God, their experience, however we may define it, is less than being born-again. This tendency or bent toward sin can be defined as the combination of (a) physical depravity, (b) born into a fallen, deceitful, and sinful environment, and (c) the lack of a dependent relationship with God.
5. I agree sin is a moral choice, but it can affect our constitution as evidenced by physical depravity. Committing sin brings greater bondage to sin. Scriptures like Prov 5:22, Jn 8:34, Rom 6:16, Rom 7:14 (legal experience), 2 Pet 2;19, etc. teach committing sin brings slavery to sin.
6. Men are morally depraved by personal sin. The “sin-nature” (as I refer to it) is acquired by all (after the age of accountability) by making the moral choice to sin. By “nature”, I do not mean physical nature, but rather moral nature. The sin-nature, if you will, is not something in our body, or our DNA, etc., it is spiritual and moral. Sin is not material, but moral and volitional. However, I do strongly believe sin, the committing of or refraining from, renders a moral/spiritual CHANGE in men.
I, of course, utterly reject the doctrine of “original sin” as taught by Calvinists and Catholics, however, I am convinced that to deny a “bent toward sin” (however men may define this) is contrary to Scripture and sound reason (as is demonstrable).
I assert the Scriptures teach sin greatly affects human nature and constitution. Thus, a denial of or redefining of the “principle of sin” is very dangerous in my opinion as indicated in 1 John 1:8. 1 John 1:8 and 10 addresses both sin in principle and behavior. The English word “sin” in verse 8 is translated from the Greek noun for “sin,” speaking of the principle of sin. No real Christian will deny the sin nature, sin-corruption,etc. (acquired through personal sin, not inherited). This also, IMO, leads to a doctrinal undermining of the supernatural power of regeneration and its radical moral change rendered in the repentant sinner’s constitution.
Ephesians 2:1-3 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
I am also leery of a redefining of “grace” as only an impersonal influence void of divine power. Though such an assertion can technically be defended, the Greek word χάρις, translated “grace”, literally means divine influence upon the heart and its reflection in the life. I believe it is foolish to declare that divine influence, God’s very influence, is somehow not “power”.
2 Corinthians 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
Ephesians 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
I do believe “grace” is a divine influence, however, I think to merely reduce it to “divine favor” or “influence” is somewhat inadequate. Holy Ghost power is something promised to the believer through the atoning work of Christ. I think it very unwise and unscriptural to attempt to separate divine grace from divine power. True, God will force no one to live holy or to forsake sin. Nevertheless, He will grant them grace. No doubt, the issue at the root of human rebellion is not “I can’t” but “I won’t”. Nevertheless, we cannot reject, in an effort to uphold human responsibility, what the Bible teaches regarding the spiritual and moral ramifications of sin. Sin renders men bound, but ultimately men are accountable for their own bondage. As an illustration, consider the following example: suppose I am thoroughly warned about taking a certain path through the forest. However, suppose I obstinately reject, against all reason, the wise counsel of others and take the aforementioned path anyway. Soon, as I was forewarned, I fall into quicksand. Now, I am helpless. I cannot free myself and can only be rescued by the power of another (though it will require my co-operation). Nevertheless, any rational man knows I am completely and solely responsible for my predicament. So it is with the sinner. The word that seems to trouble many people is “enable”. But enable does not mean force, which is what would be necessary to strip men of moral responsibility or give them any reasonable excuse.
Also, in zeal to uphold human responsibility, making too much of “natural ability”, I believe, is to wander into perilous theological waters. I believe men have a certain degree of natural ability, namely, that they can externally refrain from any given sin. In other words, men do not HAVE to commit specific sins: they do not have to get drunk or be sodomites, etc. However, sinners cannot have right motives, hence, nothing they do, even external conformity to the law, is acceptable to God. No one, apart from Christ, can produce Christ. Christ is God’s standard. Hence, all must be born-again. Men are ultimately responsible for their sins because God has provided the means for utter deliverance, namely, Jesus Christ.
Proverbs 21:27 The sacrifice of the wicked is abomination: how much more, when he bringeth it with a wicked mind?
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousness are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Even if you regulate the above verse to mere instruction from the Word of God, you cannot divorce grace from this experience as the Bible declares “grace and truth” comes by Jesus (Jn 1:14, 17) and Jesus is the Word of God.
1 Corinthians 12:3 …no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Every command of God is also supercharged with supernatural and divine power (Jn 6:63; Heb 4;12). A man cannot hear God’s demand to repent without also being offered the grace to fulfill. It cannot be otherwise, else we remove God from the dynamic of man’s salvation.
I do not believe that sinners, apart from being converted, can fully or completely fulfill the moral law (Rom 3:19-20). Personal sin has rendered sinners so bound, both in action and principle, that they become helpless in their sin. However, contrary to what many believe, this does not excuse them for their sin. I believe once a human being reaches the age of moral accountability and chooses to plunge headlong into sin, sin takes its toll. Then the sinner must be set free, nevertheless, the sinner is solely responsible for his condition. Romans 7, in my estimation, clearly demonstrates this. Could Paul be lying when he said that the “Romans 7 man” could not find ABILITY to perform that which is good in verse 18? I think not. And yet, the “Romans 7 man” was still responsible for his sin and the consequent bondage because he sold himself to evil (v. 14).
In my estimation, if we become more driven to be logical than Biblical, we will most certainly err in our doctrine. No doubt, a desire to understand God, His Word, and His ways are born of God’s Spirit. Moreover, a burden to not only comprehend but to teach and logically communicate Biblical truth is consistent with the call to preach. However, we are unwise to overlook this dynamic of philosophical tension ever present in establishing a systematic theology. There is a delicate precedent that must always be maintained: first God’s Word, second perceived logic and intellectual consistency. If this precedent is ever violated and logic transcends simply holding to what God’s Word clearly teaches, we are on dangerous ground. Ultimately, if we are loyal to the Scriptures, sometimes our precious system of thought will be void of adequate explanations and we will be forced to confess, “I cannot explain it”. I recall some wonderful advice given to me by an older and seasoned preacher that applies…
“One of the highest forms of wisdom a man can display is to simply admit that he doesn’t know the answer to everything.”
Again, describing man’s natural condition before conversion is a difficult task. In many cases I think misunderstandings arise due to mere semantics.